One of the main arguments about The Bacta War by Trekkies was about the size of the torpedoes used against the Lusankya. At the time, Trekkies used the "1 kiloton" rating for fighter-class proton torpedoes from the STAR WARS Technical Journal in calculating how many photon torpedoes would destroy an Executor-class Star Deadnought. That argument was based on faulty logic as well as a disregard for anything resembling reading ability. Chris O'Farrell participated in Argument 1:

Mr. Poe

Remember, that a significant portion of those torpedoes came from the freighters which were equipped with the capital-class launchers.

Trekkie

Which were not necessarly firing torpedoes of other kinds.

Mr. Poe

Ridiculous. In "Heir To The Empire", a spacetrooper shoots proton torpedoes from a backpack mounted launcher. Was he shooting starfighter-sized proton torpedoes? Nope. He was shooting mini proton torpedoes. Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, pg.40, "MISSILE TUBE" The PLX-2M carries six Arakyd 3+3 missiles, each equipped with miniature proton warheads.

Trekkie

Which are not what I am interested in, proton torpedoes. I am trying to (as the thread topic suggests) use sources relating to proton torpedoes, not smaller weapons based off proton torpedo technology which are irrelevent.

Mr. Poe

That's like saying you'd rather not discuss slippers because you want to discuss shoes. Nothing more than a semantics dodge to dismiss the fact that these examples I provided are based off the same technology, which bolsters my point, not making it by itself.

Trekkie

The Plex is a small anti air missile which might be based off a proton torpedo warhead, but thats utterly useless to this debate which is about proton torpedos, NOT weapons that might use some of that technology.

Mr. Poe

The point is completely relevant, being that high yield proton torpedoes aren't something amazing or unlikely, and that proton torpedoes don't come in only one flavor. If backpack-mounted missile launches have their own sized-to-fit torpedoes, why is it such an effort to acknowledge the existence of capital-class proton torpedoes for capital-class launcher systems? Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, pg.90, "PROTON GRENADE" Proton grenades are high-powered handheld explosives that contain a proton core, a greatly reduced version of the warheads used in proton torpedoes.

Trekkie

And this has WHAT to do with proton torpedos? Its rather clear that the scope of the debate is talking about me wanting proof of specific proton torpedo yields and such.

Mr. Poe

You seem to have missed these: Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels, pg.112: The main weapon was a forward proton torpedo launcher mounted directly in front of the cockpit. The launcher carried high-yield proton torpedoes, which were far more dangerous than standard laser cannons, although their range was still limited. The Sungem had enough space for twelve high-yield proton torpedoes or twenty-four standard proton torpedoes. The Hutt Gambit pg.313: One of the Mercenary corvettes is armed with a pair of capital ship proton-torpedo launchers under the bridge. She only had 4 torpedoes as they were extremely had to come by. One torpedo took out a bulk cruisers shields. It took four Y-wing torpedos to do the same. These speak to exactly what you're looking for, yet you don't acknowledge them.

Trekkie

And as your proof of THAT, you bring up totaly different weapons systems that at best have a questionable relationship TO proton torpedoes? Sorry, that simply does not work.

Mr. Poe

Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, pg.90, "PROTON GRENADE" Proton grenades are high-powered handheld explosives that contain a proton core, a greatly reduced version of the warheads used in proton torpedoes. How is this a "questionable relationship to proton torpedoes?" In real life, capital ships aren't armed with fighter sized missiles.

Trekkie

Red Herring. Real Life has very little bearing on how people in science fiction use weapons systems and technology. Making a case saying "well in real life bla bla bla" is utterly useless in sci fi debating. In "real life", capital ships are VERY OFTEN armed with fighter sized missiles. One example that comes to mind is the Harpoon ASM, one of the most common anti ship missiles. Another is the Exoceit ASM. The only differences in the missiles is the addition of a booster rocket to shoot it into the air so its internal engine can activate. Which is just a thing with gravity.

Mr. Poe

Since the missiles can't be fired into the air without a booster rocket, its not "fighter sized", now is it? Well well, what do we have here? Why, the same thing as above, with the PLX-2M, PROTON GRENADE, and PROTON TORPEDOES. It's the same technology used in different applications, once again. In SW, proton torpedoes follow this lead. A spacetrooper in "Heir To The Empire" peppered the Millennium Falcon with what was described as "mini" proton torpedoes.

Trekkie

Which are NOT proton torpedoes.

Mr. Poe

Do you honestly think you can win a debate by resorting to this ignorant crap? Semantics dodges to dismiss the fact that again, these examples I've provided are based off the same technology, which bolsters my point, not making it by itself. Mini proton torpedoes, fighter class proton torpedoes, capital class proton torpedoes, and proton grenades all work on the same principle. It's the same technology used in different applications, once again. Also, refer to the concussion missile section of the "EGWT", where different sizes are also discussed, and "Tyrant's Test", where CM5s and CM9s are used.

Trekkie

Ah, but I am not talking about concussion missiles. THOSE I will freely admit come in different sizes.

Mr. Poe

Ah, but its just IMPOSSIBLE to make proton torpedoes of different sizes, right? Oh wait, no it isn't, as "EGWT" clearly shows.

Trekkie

Hell just look at the VSD 1. Each arc contains 20 capital concussion missiles. They are monsters; massive things. On the OTHER hand, in "Specter of the Past", Pellaeon's ISD, the Chimaera, was stated to have proton torpedo CELLS, box launchers in three by five configuration; at least eight of these things. NOT in single massive missile tubes like on the VSD I, but in cell launchers which in fact is VERY much pointing to small torpedoes like box launchers today on ships cary a group of small missiles.

Mr. Poe

Red Herring. Real Life has very little bearing on how people in science fiction use weapons systems and technology. Making a case saying "well in real life bla bla bla" is utterly useless in sci fi debating. Do I smell hypocrite?

Trekkie

The raid on the Bacta storage plant proved MY point: Wedge comments on the torpedoes being powerful enough to damage Imperial Star Destroyers and against the ground targets they were blasting things to bits.

Mr. Poe

Are you misrepresenting the evidence again? The Bacta War pg.172: The missiles, which were powerful enough to put quite a dent in an Imperial Star Destroyer, blasted apart unarmored buildings. The Bacta War pg. 186-187: Conversely, aside from repeated proton torpedo salvos, there was no way snubfighters could cripple or destroy a Star Destroyer.

Trekkie

This shows clearly that the torpedoes were the ones that WOULD be used against Star Destroyer sized targets, backed up by the fact that Wedge orders everyone to hold them back for anti ship use, AFTER ordering them to be fired at incoming fighters!!!

Mr. Poe

Wedge ordered them to hold back two torpedoes to cover their escape. As in using the highest yield weapon on an X-wing as a diversionary tactic so an attack on a ISD would be NOTICED, while the rest of the squad got away.

Trekkie

No, Wedge ordered them to hold back torpedoes that would be enough to slow it down while they got away.

Mr. Poe

"Slow it down"? Do you have a quote for that?

Trekkie

The ONLY logical outcome is that the spread would damage the ISD, probably only its shields enough to make then pause to lick their wounds instead of pressing their attack and possibly getting far worse damage.

Mr. Poe

This is simply not true, especially if you've READ THE BOOK. Not one Star Destroyer paused or retreated when such a thing occurred. And THIS was when they were hit by a superior number of proton torpedoes, with concussion missile assists. Also, two torpedoes per ship wouldn't do jack shit to an ISD: The Bacta War pg. 196: The only way to counter the Corrupter's threat was for the X-wings to hit it with a spread of proton torpedoes. The squadron, firing double shots, could pump out twenty two proton torpedoes.

Trekkie

I see ZERO evidence of wildly varying yeilds. The engagmenet THERE is showing ONE yeild,

Mr. Poe

Nice strawman, since it was only AFTER this raid that they made the deal with Karrde for more equipment, and THAT raid only included X-wings, not ships that could carry capital-class torp launchers.

Trekkie

Yes the raid included X-Wings using torpedoes which are ONLY anti ship weapons as I will show again: Showdown at Centerpoint Part of what Luke was counting on was the element of surprise. No one used proton torpedoes in fighter to fighter encounters. They were slower and less accurate—but more powerful—than turbolasers, intended for use against bigger targets. Dark Tide II, Ruin Throughout the time snubfighters had engaged in combat, a debate had raged over the efficiancy of employing proton torpedoes against other starfighters. There was no doubting the missiles would obliterate a starfighter. The weapons were designed for damaging much larger ships. To use them against a snubfighter was the equivilant of using a vibrox-ax to kill an insect—gross overkill. Then again, in combat, can overkill ever be gross? Here are two VERY VERY VERY clear quotes, both a long way into the SW timeline on proton torpedoes saying EXACTLY what they are used for. HITTING BIG SHIPS

Mr. Poe

Star Wars Sourcebook pg.8: Proton torpedoes, concussion missiles, and bombs have become the primary surface-attack weapons of light space forces. The Bacta War pg. 186: [Corran Horn]-- The whole stratagy was to hit and run, which worked exceedingly well. Because the Thyferrans scheduled their bacta shipments it was possible for the Rogues to show up, force the Star Destroyers to scramble their fighters, pop off some proton torpedoes to take out a few TIEs, then scatter. Isard's Revenge pg.59-60: Inyri likewise shot a proton torpedo at one of the Interceptors. Her missile hit dead on target, lancing up through the bottom of the ball cockpit and out through the starboard side before exploding. You were saying?

Trekkie

The ground targets were taking the full power of the torpedoes OR Wedge would not have been concerned with the damage they were DOING with them being powerful enough to hurt ISD's!

Mr. Poe

Wedge was concerned with the collateral damage reaching in to the residential areas. And THAT was due to a proton torp overshooting its mark.

Trekkie

Missiles used against the Refinary, incomming fighters AND being saved for attacking capital ships indicates CLEARLY as the sources in "Ruin" and "SAC" say, protons are anti-ship weapons that can be used against other targets. There are NOT anti-fighter weapons. There are NOT anti-ground weapons. There are just proton torpedoes and some very rare high yield ones which appear to be far more powerful.

Mr. Poe

And? You're talking out of both sides of your mouth. The torpedoes are used on BIGGER ships. It is not stated that they are for taking down CAPITAL ships EXCLUSIVELY. Star Wars Sourcebook, First Edition, pg.8: Proton torpedoes, concussion missiles, and bombs have become the primary surface-attack weapons of light space forces. Star Wars Sourcebook, First Edition, pg.29: Small craft simply cannot do significant damage to large combat vessels with massive shield generators and thick armor.

Trekkie

In "I Jedi", 64 standard issue torps were required by fighters to take down an ISD II shield arc. In some comic I head of, Guri, the HRD used six or eight 'high yield' torps to KILL an ISD. If the torps were being issued for the mission, the rebel fighters would logicaly have been given THOSE to take down the ISD as that was there job.

Mr. Poe

That was NOT their job for that mission. Quit trying to rewrite the sources to fit your interpretations. If standard proton torpedoes were inflicting collateral damage, why the hell would they use HIGHER yield proton torpedoes, ESPECIALLY since torpedoes were in short supply before the deal with Karrde?

Trekkie

The fact that these torpedoes with that firepower are never SEEN in standard issue—

Mr. Poe

Let's close these escape hatches you're trying to use to wiggle out of this argument. They weren't seen in THAT ENGAGEMENT; in THE BACTA WAR. They ARE SEEN elsewhere. Now, let's continue:

Trekkie

—shows that they are EXTREMLY rare.

Mr. Poe

In THAT ENGAGEMENT. ALL proton torpedoes were in short supply for Rogue Squadron for two reasons: 1) Rogue Squadron was operating outside the normal command structure of the New Republic. They all resigned they positions and joined Wedge. ("The Krytos Trap") 2) The mission at the Bacta facility happened BEFORE they made the deal with Karrde to be re-equipped with torpedoes and launchers.

Trekkie

Otherwise the rebels could have just loaded up all their fighters with a few of these torpedoes each and over a few weeks, blown the ISD fleet to hell.

Mr. Poe

Obviously, once again, you didn't read the book, or once again, you are misrepresenting the facts on purpose. The Rogue Squadron was operating on their own along with the Gands, without the main support of the New Republic. The fighters can't carry capital-class launchers, and even if they could, the Bacta facility raid happened BEFORE they bought the torpedoes from Karrde.

Trekkie

No mention in "The Bacta War" by Booster or Karade is made when they are discussing purchases of torpedo models. He is very specific that he wants capital ship launchers and starfighter launches but then just asks for a heep of "proton torpedos".

Mr. Poe

Booster hardly needed to specify to Karrde that he needed capital class proton torps for the capital class launchers. He's not a moron. Booster would NOT need to specify the numbers of the 2 types of launchers. Let's say you're a gunrunner, Chris. I order 50 .22 derringers, 12 .44 magnums, a SPAS-12 shotgun, and 1000 rounds of bullets, 500 rounds of shells, and 60 holsters. Now are you going to tell me that you are going to present me with .22 cal. bullets for the derringers AND the mags, and are you going to hand me 60 derringer holsters? Of course not. It goes without SAYING that I want the proper ammo for the proper weapon.

Trekkie

And given their situation, it makes sense that they would want a universal torpedo, one that could be used by every launcher so that they have a common stockpile.

Mr. Poe

If they wanted a "universal" torpedo, it would make sense to ONLY order fighter-class launchers. Also, consider the size of the torpedo launcher.They vary from one starfighter model to another, from one warship to another. It's implausible that all of them all use the same size, same yield torpedo model.

Trekkie

The deal with Karrde for the VERY last time makes mention of capital ship and starfighter launchers, yes. But Boster simply asks for "two thousand proton torpedoes and a thousand concussion missiles". Here he is asking for specific numbers of warheads, SPECIFIC launcher systems in telling Karrde EXACTLY what he WANTS so he can see if Karrde can get it, yet you would have everyone believe that at this point, he would simply forget to ask for SPECIFIC torpedo models when he is checking for availabilty of the things he WANTS? That utterly LUDICROUS. A FAR more logical position is that he is asking simply for one model of weapon as he never makes any kind of statement on different models when it was THE time to say it, to see if Karrde could get it for him!

Mr. Poe

He wouldn't NEED to specify the proper torps for the proper launchers. Get THAT through your thick skull. The fighters can't carry capital-class launchers!

Trekkie

Which are just apparently from "Specter of the Past" a cell box that contains numerous torpedoes of the normal model, not massive torpedoes like you're claiming!

Mr. Poe

You have absolutely NOTHING in "Specter of the Past" that says those torpedoes were NOT capital class!

Trekkie

Further, the missiles CAN'T be that big. On page 315 [of "Specter of the Past"] a "Disk Shaped Correllian Light Freighter" which was part of the attacking force and clearly firing weapons (otherwise there was no reason for it to be there) was shown ot be part of the attacking force. Ships of that line, like YT-1300's, YT-2400's e.t.c. are very small ships, not much bigger then snubs themselves.

Mr. Poe

Gee, that's real funny Chris, as "EGWT" completely contradicts this ludicrous boast of yours. Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, pg.78, The Millennium Falcon carries a pair of Arakyd ST2 missile launchers, each with a magazine of four missiles. For smaller ships, where mass significantly affects flight performance, miniaturized launchers such as the Krupx MG5 may be used. This launcher has a magazine of four missiles and often is mounted on Z95 Headhunters and other light craft. The New Republic has added a pair of small Dymex HM-6 launchers (each with a magazine of six torpedoes)to many of its A-wing fighters, giving the light interceptors some badly needed punch. Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology, pg.40, "MISSILE TUBE" "The PLX-2M carries six Arakyd 3+3 missiles, each equipped with miniature proton warheads." What have we learned, class? Well, given the above information, its quite clear that magazine capacity is not a decisive factor on the difference of starfighter and starship mounted launchers. In fact, we have learned that starships carry a bigger launcher than a starfighter, and have the SAME MAGAZINE CAPACITY. Fancy that.

Mr. Poe

If backpack-mounted missile launches have their own sized-to-fit torpedoes, why is it such an effort to acknowledge the existence of capital-class proton torpedoes for capital-class launcher systems?

Lord Edam

That is an unwarranted extrapolation. just because they have man-carried missiles doesn't mean the fighter and cap-ship launched torpedoes are different.

Mr. Poe

THAT is an unwarranted rebuttal. My "extrapolation" is NOT "unwarranted", but likely given the correlation I gave. Its JUST as likely as the "My Interpretation Is Right" mantra you and Chris are pushing down everyone's throat.

Lord Edam

you insist there is a difference, even though there is no need for it. that is an unwarranted extrapolation.

Mr. Poe

No, I insist there's a difference, since the EU sources say that there is.

Lord Edam

as an example of why your logic here is so ridiculous,

Mr. Poe

Go fuck yourself, you over-indulgent piece of shit. No matter how much you don't like it, your interpretations are not the best, OR only ones that are acceptable. Your utter defeat in the Wong debate should have clued you in to this fact of life.

Lord Edam

Wow, I'm really surprised you fell into that one so quickly Wayne,

Mr. Poe

I'm just repeating what most everyone else has said, to underline a form of reference.

Lord Edam

If the torpedoes are different between cap and fighter class as you believe then Booster would have to specify how many of each class he wants - Karrde doesn't know how many torps booster wants to use for the fighters, and how many he wants to use for the freighters.

Mr. Poe

Funny, Karrde didn't strike me as a moron. Booster ordered 250 capital ship systems, so obviously, he'd need enough capital ship proton torpedoes to fully load out those launchers.

Lord Edam

If he wanted just a single full load. Maybe he wanted more. how does Karrde know? Did booster tell him (we'll be needing relevant quotes if you say yes)?

Mr. Poe

Yes he did; off camera as it were. The Bacta War pg. 181: "Three hundred launchers and sensor packages; fifty should be snubfighter systems, the rest can be capital ship systems. Right now I want two thousand proton torpedoes and a thousand concussion missiles, though I expect those numbers to change." Now, I don't know if you have a relevant quote about Karrde's ability to read minds, (If so, please post it) but the above exchange suggests that Booster will refine the deal once both parties have a handle on the mission objectives to come.

Lord Edam

Or is it as I say—the only difference between the systems is the number of torpedoes they hold?

Mr. Poe

Can't be. That would go against the information in "EGWT". Again, there would be no reloads for the freighters in the engagement that was to come.

Lord Edam

Information we had because we'd been following Booster. Karrde didn't have the benefit of a book to clue him in on what was needed.

Mr. Poe

He didn't need one, since, as shown above, he would be privy to the mission profile once it was finalized.

Lord Edam

Cap-ship launcers can carry more torps than the fighter launchers. This is, infact, stated in "EGWT", under proton torpedoes. the only difference stated between the two systems, infact.

Mr. Poe

The "only difference"? I suppose you have a quote to back this up?

Lord Edam

The ONLY difference listed on the page between cap ship and figher torps is "EGWT" many capital ships and orbital defense stations also maintain these weapons systems, though with a much greater ammunition capacity If there was a difference in the torpedoes they carried (or more specifically the yield of those torps) that would be the perfect place to mention it.

Mr. Poe

The people that wrote the book didn't think so, so they put that information on the following pages. Also, "many capital ships and orbital defense stations also maintain these weapons systems," simply means that yes, capital ships and orbital defense stations have proton and concussion missile systems, too. Something we already know.

Lord Edam

Nothing in EGWT states that capital ship missiles and fighter missiles are different. We already accept there are different launchers - cap ship launchers would have larger magazine capacity & probably be cheaper (less precision needed in the electronics) than fighter launchers.

Mr. Poe

EGWT pg.78: The Millennium Falcon carries a pair of Arakyd ST2 missile launchers, each with a magazine of four missiles. For smaller ships, where mass significantly affects flight performance, miniaturized launchers such as the Krupx MG5 may be used. This launcher has a magazine of four missiles and often is mounted on Z95 Headhunters and other light craft. The New Republic has added a pair of small Dymex HM-6 launchers (each with a magazine of six torpedoes)to many of its A-wing fighters, giving the light interceptors some badly needed punch. EGWT, pg.40, "MISSILE TUBE" The PLX-2M carries six Arakyd 3+3 missiles, each equipped with miniature proton warheads. What have we learned, class? Well, given the above information, its quite clear that magazine capacity is not a decisive factor on the difference of starfighter and starship mounted launchers. In fact, we have learned that starships carry a bigger launcher than a starfighter, and have the SAME MAGAZINE CAPACITY. Fancy that. We have also learned that SMALL launchers on A-wing fighters carry six torpedoes. And we have also learned that a backpack mounted proton torpedo launcher is equipped with miniature proton warheads. From the other EU sources, we know that these launchers aren't necessarily exclusive for proton torpedoes or concussion missiles, but as EGWT shows, the SIZE of these missiles are the distinguishing factor. Note that for example, the EGWT states that the The Millennium Falcon carries a pair of Arakyd ST2 missile launchers. Champion Of The Force pg.241: Han launched three proton torpedoes into the labyrinth of cross beams and supports as they charged toward the enormous construction. Millennium Falcon firing proton torpedoes Isard's Revenge pg.220: "You'll find the Sienar Fleet Systems TIE Defender is the fastest, best-equipped starfighter in the galaxy. Unlike other TIE designs, it incorporates shields, which provide the pilot with an improved survival profile. It has four lasers that can be fired singly, linked, or quadded, as well as two ion cannons. It carries eight concussion missiles or proton torpedoes depending upon mission profile, and has a tractor beam. Nothing in "EGWT" states that capital ship torps and fighter torps are exactly the same. "EGWT" also details miniaturized launchers for concussion missles (pg. 78) depending on the size of the ship that carries them. The freighters in TBW were most likely using the larger sized Arakyd ST2 missle launchers like the Millennium Falcon was carrying in ROTJ, as well as the larger proton torpedo launchers.

Lord Edam

Lets say you're only going to use the .44's once, how does Chris know you only want 100 .44 bullets and 900 .22's? He doesn't, because you didn't tell him.

Mr. Poe

If I'm only going to use each of those Magnums once, I'd just need 96 bullets. That would leave me with 904 bullets for the .22 Derringers. Remind me not to do business with Chris.

Lord Edam

so I rounded a little.

Mr. Poe

An unforgiveable sin, no? How would I, the BUYER feel about you charging me with more than I asked for? It would probably be sorted during the finalizing stage, as was the case with Booster and Karrde.

Lord Edam

You ignore the point made - how does Chris know you only want to use the magnums once?

Mr. Poe

Probably during the finalizing stage, as was the case with Booster and Karrde.

Lord Edam

Unless there is already a universal torpedo, and the reason for accepting cap-ship launchers is that they use the same torps as fighters, but have a greater magazine capacity.

Mr. Poe

Still doesn't make sense, since they couldn't afford to waste torps by simply firing off a whole bunch of them. Obviously, they were looking for a bigger punch with minimal waste.